lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Any VC10 related discussions.....
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1103
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by 1103 »

Foxdelta211f-bvfd wrote:It would be great to see 'VM with a tail again but I sadly doubt it will happen....
there is no reason for it not to however.....
I was thinking about this, then the thought struck me about the weather cock effect in the high winds we experienced just before Christmas. What was the potential for VM to wreck itself and possible 'DG'?

Paul
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by Jelle Hieminga »

Back when 'VM was kicked out at Cosford several plans were discussed. Initially only a front fuselage section would be preserved but fortunately this turned in to the whole fuselage being roaded to Brooklands. I advocated keeping the tail at one point as this is such an iconic image that screams 'VC10' but there were several reasons for not going down this route:
  • The tail was in a bad shape and would have needed lots of work to restore. Especially the top of the horizontal tail is prone to corrosion but the fin itself has some troublesome corners as well. Keeping it in a decent shape is another story.
  • It would have needed another lorry load at least to transport which added to the costs.
  • As mentioned by Paul (I cannot remember if it was discussed back then) the fin/horizontal tail makes the airframe more vulnerable to high winds. Also it shifts the CG back and would probably necessitate additional support of the fuselage. As it is now 'VM is representative of a fuselage as it was transported around the Weybridge site during production. Have a look at the second image on this page: http://www.vc10.net/Memories/Trialstribulations.html The dolly that the fuselage rests on was designed to look like the ones that were used in the 60s.
As for refitting a fin and or horizontal tail to 'VM, there are some other aspects to consider, one being that the ones being scrapped now are all Super VC10 tails with the integral fin tank. 'VM never had this feature so it would be the wrong fin for the airframe. The horizontal tails are interchangeable I think but you need a fin first. With a tail installed 'VM would have to be moved so that it is facing into the prevailing wind just like the other aircraft at Brooklands. There is not all that much room to do that in its current position. It would have the same tail area as A4O-AB but would be much lighter overall, not having wings or engines, meaning that it would move a whole lot easier in a high wind. Overall I don't think that Brooklands will go down this route. If any tail parts move to Brooklands it will be as spares for A4O-AB.
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EGDGZTCW
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by EGDGZTCW »

I have been amazed just how much the wind bounces 148 about particularly when you're sat on the flightdeck. It is parked in the lea of the hangar but the wind hits the huge tailplane as it tumbles over the hangar roof. We've had to position two IPC containers filled with water either side of the nose wheel just to ensure she doesn't weather cock. She kicked her chocks aside just from the constant rocking.
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by SEngO »

Watch out if it snows, especially with little fuel in there was always a risk of upending due to weight of snow on the tail plane. Standard procedure was to motor TPI fully to ensure any snow would fall off if heavy snow forecast!
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by Thumper »

Yes, I seem to remember someones Vulcan went nose up under snow a few years ago.
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by petet16 »

Regarding snow build up on the tailplane, if you have a gpu available, you can use the ac hyd pump to run the tpi to fully a/c nose down this should ensure any snow build up slides off the trailing edge.
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by EGDGZTCW »

petet16 wrote:Regarding snow build up on the tailplane, if you have a gpu available, you can use the ac hyd pump to run the tpi to fully a/c nose down this should ensure any snow build up slides off the trailing edge.
Thanks for that petet16, not sure how we stand with 148. I'm sure she's had her hyd fluid drained by GJD as part of the decomissioning but I'm not an engineer. Keeping some weight on is probably good idea then just in case of snow. That said, ".....it never snows in Cornwall boy" ...... apparently!
Utter nonsense of course but thats what I was told when I first came here 30 years ago. :lol:
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by petet16 »

I must admit I hadn't considered that the hyd systems would be drained, it would probably be easier in that case to put some ballast in the front of the forward freight compartment, old ammo boxes full of concrete work well.
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by 1103 »

SEngO wrote:Watch out if it snows, especially with little fuel in there was always a risk of upending due to weight of snow on the tail plane. Standard procedure was to motor TPI fully to ensure any snow would fall off if heavy snow forecast!
Don't forget 148 is now engineless so that has moved the C of G forward

From the K.3 Weight & Balance Manual:-

Five inches of snow on an aircraft without crew & with fuel tanks empty could be sufficient to move the C of G aft of the MLG pivot and cause the aircraft to tip.


The MM states 1 inch of snow will move the C of G 5.3 inches aft on a K.3

Paul
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by EGDGZTCW »

Thanks Paul,

Yes sadly no engines but the snow issue is a valid point that I hadn't considered at all.

May I ask what or where the MLG Pivot?

Chris
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by 1103 »

EGDGZTCW wrote:Thanks Paul,

Yes sadly no engines but the snow issue is a valid point that I hadn't considered at all.

May I ask what or where the MLG Pivot?

Chris
IMO snow will not be a problem for 148 as removing the engines has removed 11.3T from aft of the pivot point. It will take awful lot of snow to tip it up now.

The pivot point will be the pivot of the MLG bogie.

Paul
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by EGDGZTCW »

Ah of course, Main Landing Gear - thank you
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by Ron »

Anyone care to see 241 performing at this years Cold War Jets Open Days?
Fingers crossed, it will be !
Make sure you keep Sundays May 25th and August 24th clear in your diaries.

Final confirmation ref BOB is still awaited, but it is looking good for a move to Cosford during the Summer of 2014 (hopefully we'll get a decent one....).
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by Magnum »

Ron wrote:Anyone care to see 241 performing at this years Cold War Jets Open Days?
Fingers crossed, it will be !
Make sure you keep Sundays May 25th and August 24th clear in your diaries.

Final confirmation ref BOB is still awaited, but it is looking good for a move to Cosford during the Summer of 2014 (hopefully we'll get a decent one....).
Already got my hotel room booked so I can come and help out on the day.
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Re: lets keep a close eye on the survivors

Post by Mikey »

Awesome!
Have a few pictures too just got to dig them out and find which memory stick i now have them on.
Too many old images transferred to digital and put on lot of memory cards.
But got some great shots around.
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