VC10 preservation (ex-Keep one VC10 flying) thread

Any VC10 related discussions.....
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Hansajet
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VC10 preservation (ex-Keep one VC10 flying) thread

Post by Hansajet » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:43 pm

Dear VC10 "nuts". :-)
I'm new to this forum, but admire the graceful lines of the Vickers VC10 since many years. Only in flight, this remarkable British aircraft type shows all its beauty and extraordinary design features. Aircraft don't belong into museums, they belong into the air! Only there they can show younger generations what was achieved five decades ago in aviation design. This is why I founded the charitable association A HANSA JET for Hamburg http://www.hansajet.de . We are currently restoring a last HFB 320 into airworthy condition. A huge task, but our dedicated team of highly experienced volunteers will accomplish it. This plane will have exactly this purpose: show the younger generations how advanced aircraft engineering used to be. Airbus and alike have a proud past in Europe, and the VC10 is part of this unique heritage. Therefore I would like to encourage all interested parties to form an organization in Britain in order to keep a last RAF VC10 in flying condition! As said, I am no dreamer. I know of the technical and financial challenges that such a project would mean. But it is worth all the tears and sweat, and I would be happy to be the starting point for such a great venture. Please get in touch - it's not too late. The VC10 is still flying, there are licensed flying and technical crews, spares, tools and a wealth of experience and enthusiasm. Let's try it and get together!
Cheers, Wolfgang

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Manofmendip » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:36 pm

Hi Wolfgang

I'm of the same mind as you on this.

I posted a similar message a while back but was told that saving one in flying condition was not an option.

You posted your message on the 'People' Forum, it would be worth also posting it on the 'Miscellaneous' and or 'Technical' forum on the site too.

I worked at Weybridge just after the last VC10 flew out and I saw many of them on test at Wisley. I knew Ernie Marshall the Chief Project Engineer who was the person who came up with the wonderful shape of the VC10.

Let me know how I can help you to get this rolling.

Best regards.

Dave

I've moved this topic to 'Technicalities' so that you don't have to create duplicate topics. - JH

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Tonkenna
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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Tonkenna » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:35 pm

It is a wonderful idea to keep an VC10 flying, but one has to be realistic. The ac are coming to the end of their practical lives and one of the reasons for that is as they retire they are coming up to their next major servicing. To keep them flying would require that servicing as a start and the last ones cost £5-7 million and that was in a facility set up for the VC10.

But that could be the easy part... First you you would need the support of the Design Authority (BAe), without that you would not be able to fly. Secondly and perhaps even harder to achieve you would need the support of the CAA. That support (IMO) would be very difficult to get. The Vulcan trust spent many years convincing the CAA, and the Vulcan is technically a much simpler ac, the VC10 is a complicated piece of technology and it is also old. The RAF spends millions on spares and many parts have to be specially made. The CAA is not a big fan of privately run complicated ac and I would guess the VC10 would fit in that class.

So, if you can get past those two organisations you then need to fund it. The Vulcan trust is again a good example here... they have really struggled to maintain an income stream and they have an ac that is very impressive at airshows. The VC10 is beautiful, but it is not a spectacular airshow ac, so perhaps the way ahead is passenger flights, but there again is a problem. The VC10 is way behind in terms of safety related issues such as evacuation slides, floor mounted lighting etc and that would cost a fortune to fit. The ac is also not well know to the public... folks like us love the ac, but other that former air and ground crews and aviation enthusiasts who is likely to fund the adventure. It is unlikely that British Airways will sponsor as they were happy to see their VC10 at Cosford chopped up and the RAF doesn't have the money. It is unlikely that Branson would as there is no connection there and it is not really a Red Bull type project.

There are so many technical issues... where would the spare engines come from... there are very few left and we have seen the trouble the Vulcan has had with that. I could go on...

I know I sound like a bit of a misery guts, but I would hate to see a beautiful ac like the 10 have an incident in private hands and become well known to the public for the wrong reasons. I would rather see a big effort to get one preserved properly, in excellent condition. I think we have to accept that not all ac types can be kept flying...

Just my 2 pennies worth...

Tonks --+0+--
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Tonkenna
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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Tonkenna » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:49 pm

Although, talking of engines:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolls-Royce-C ... 27ccacfd37!!!

Mrs T said NO

Tonks :?
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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by petet16 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:35 pm

Tonkenna wrote:Although, talking of engines:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolls-Royce-C ... 27ccacfd37!!!

Mrs T said NO

Tonks :?
I got a NO as well, even 3000 Nectar points couldn't sweeten the deal.

I assume they've come from Brunters

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by petet16 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:38 pm

As for keeping one flying, it's a total non starter for the reasons outlined by Tonkenna, although there is a full set of VC10 staging at St Athan on stand by, just in case :lol:

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Jelle Hieminga
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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Jelle Hieminga » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:59 pm

Tonkenna wrote:Mrs T said NO
What, you asked first? There's a rookie mistake :-)////) :lol: :wink:
Buttons . . . check. Dials . . . check. Switches . . . check. Little
colored lights . . . check.

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Jelle Hieminga » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:17 pm

And now for the serious reply: a flying VC10 would be a wonderful thing but it needs a massive effort and a tremendous amount of cash. I hadn't expected those engines to turn up on Ebay so soon but ideally, to support a flying VC10, we'd have to start buying up those 10 engines right now.

Something else to think about is that you cannot put a VC10 back onto a civil registration straight away as all the airframes have been significantly modified, or they are of a variant which has never been on a (regular) civil registration before (the RAF's type 1106).

In the end no obstacle is too high to overcome but to get something like this off the ground (literally) may be a bit too steep. I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but apart from offering some room on this site, there's not much I can do apart from playing devil's advocate.

Something that just struck me is the fact that one preservation effort should not stand in the way of another. The last VC10 to retire is due to stay 'live' at Bruntingthorpe and some spares and support is needed for that too. If someone tries for an airworthy VC10 then this might get in the way of the efforts for Brunty. It might be better at this stage to focus on the plans which are in place already so that there will be a live airframe which could be the basis for a future flyer. That's what happened to XH558 too...
Buttons . . . check. Dials . . . check. Switches . . . check. Little
colored lights . . . check.

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Manofmendip » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:36 pm

Hi Jelle

That is sound advice and good news about the proposal to keep a 'live' airframe at Bruntingthorpe.

1.How live will it be do you thin

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Manofmendip » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:40 pm

Hi Jelle

That is sound advice and good news about the proposal to keep a 'live' airframe at Bruntingthorpe. Just a couple of questions.

1. How live will it be do you think; possible engine runs, taxying, runs along the runway?

2. Do you know which airframe it would be? I guess it would make sense to be one of the ex EAA Super VC10s, so one of ZA147 - ZA150

Best regards to all on here.

Dave

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Manofmendip » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:44 pm

I just got a NO from my wife about the ebay Conways too :(

She's happy to go to shopping malls though, I don't understand the difference!

Best regards.

Dave

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Tonkenna » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:56 am

Those engines are actually a good example of the problem... They are obviously not serviceable; if they were,, they would not be for sale... There is a chap on here who works on engines and I am sure he would have a much better idea of how difficult it would be to get one of them airworthy again, but, I am sure it is not an easy task....

Brunty generally seem to keep their AC at the engine run/ taxi level (usually no more than that!!!). Personally, I would love to see one hangered and with electrical power; at least that way it would remain looking good... Left out side they need lots of TLC as they quickly look tatty. I saw Concorde at LHR the other day and at looks in a sad state... Not at all befitting of a beautiful old girl; we don't want the same to happen to the 10s...

Tons
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Hansajet
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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Hansajet » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:05 am

Dear all,
it's nice to see that my message has created such an interest and intense discussion about the pros and cons of a flying VC10.
If a group of people decides to get together to live the impossible dream, the time is NOW to do it.
And this doesn't conflict with the efforts to keep one VC10 operational on the ground. On the contrary.
Out of my personal experience I would suggest the following steps:

- creation of a charitable foundation with the aim of preserving British civil and military aviation history.
- presentation of a roadmap to the RAF, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce and the CAA.
- conviction of all relevant parties to donate the aircraft, engines, spares, tools, testing equipment, and, most important, the full set of documentation!
- in parallel: start of a PR campaign for public support.

What you may (still) get, and need:

- a type certified, fully operational aircraft and its engines. Maybe another VC10 and engines to cannibalize.
- VC10 (and probably enthusiastic) licensed air and ground crews.
- all necessary tools and testing equipment.

What you need:

- hangar space (provided by the RAF?)
- the assurance of RR to keep the engine type certificate valid, and their support for the engine overhaul, as this can never been done by the foundation.
- an aircraft with some hours left before the next major overhaul.
You won't fly more than 50 to 100 hours per year when visiting airshows between May and September.

What you don't necessarily need:

- the general VC10 type certificate.
The foundations VC10 could be operated in the EASA / British CAA category for vintage aircraft on a serial number related and very restricted type certificate.

Just a few thoughts on a Tuesday morning. :-)

Wolfgang

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Manofmendip » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:45 pm

Dear All

Wolfgang has started the ball rolling here and we have had some very serious and sensible input from Jelle, Tonks etc.

How many people would be prepared to hold an initial meeting, with Wolfgang, at a suitable location to see whether we have the nucleus of a committee or board of trustees to investigate this subject fully and to make a conclusion one way or the other and, if the conclusion is positive, then take the project forward. I would be very happy to be involved and Wolfgang certainly has 'hands on' experience with his Hanza project.

Lets have a show of hands and see if we have the basis of a serious team to hold a meeting.

Best regards to all.

Dave

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Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Hansajet » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:27 pm

Dear All,

I'm ready to meet the team of founders during a day trip from Germany, probably at London-Luton airport.
Then we could discuss the next steps.
I would feel honored to get this project going with you!

Cheers, Wolfgang

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