VC10 preservation (ex-Keep one VC10 flying) thread

Any VC10 related discussions.....
Post Reply
Magnum
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:07 pm
Location: Wantage

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Magnum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:41 pm

At the risk of upsetting people can iask people to stop talking about flying a VC10. All this topicshas achieved so far is annoy BAe who have made it clear they do not want it to happen.
The chance of having s runner at Bruntingthorpe has been seriously jeopardised because if this thread.

It was a nice idea and it was thotoughly researched before but it will onky remain a dream.

petet16
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:09 pm

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by petet16 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:14 pm

I don't really see how this thread has jeopardised a runner at Bruntingthorpe.

Lee606
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Lee606 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:42 pm

:?

User avatar
vololiberista
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:13 pm
Location: LIMZ - CUF

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by vololiberista » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:19 pm

I can't see how just talking about ones wishes to keep an aircraft airworthy can in any way jeopardise attempts to keep one in taxiing condition.
We all know that a VC10 is not an old car nor is it an old steam locomotive. It would use up buckets of money continuously. That in itself let alone airframe life would be extremely difficult to maintain year in year out.
What would be sad would be to see old VC10 airframes left to slowly decay in the rain. Getting enough cash to keep a roof over its head (sorry, tail) would be the only sensible goal.
vololiberista

Stewart
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Stewart » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:43 pm

Magnum wrote:At the risk of upsetting people can iask people to stop talking about flying a VC10. All this topicshas achieved so far is annoy BAe who have made it clear they do not want it to happen.
The chance of having s runner at Bruntingthorpe has been seriously jeopardised because if this thread.

It was a nice idea and it was thotoughly researched before but it will onky remain a dream.
Why would BAe care if some people would like to have one flying as it never looks likely even if it did why would they? As long as a VC10 airframe is intact this topic will never go away so short of destroying every one (including the ones arlready in museums) they are going to be annoyed for a long time

To return 241 to the civil register as G-ASGM all it requires a filled in form and £138. That is it although but would have to state you are not going to do anything like fly it till you have insurance

see here http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid ... ageid=1145 Of course for flight you then need insurance and a C of A which brings to light the issue of type rated CAA certified engineers able to sign the thing off (are there any?) of course XH588 proved none of this is insurmountable, just very difficult and unfeasibly expensive.

To get any of the others on the register requires a bit more work, BOB needs the makers help among other things as it will ne seen as a 'New' AC and in fact a type with no civil approval and ZA147 would need the resurection of EAA and again is not a type the CAA have aproved either and so again the manufacaturer would be involved . 241 requires non of this (although XH588 again proved this is possible)

Although there is the extream method which will work.. export the AC (any of them) to the USA and register it there and paint 'Experimental' on the side, the FAA will let just about anything fly (the confederate airforce have done just this on all their AC, actually they might like a tanker) Is Kermit Weeks still alive?

Rover75
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Rover75 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:32 pm

The VC10 will not fly again, where have you been when people spoke about keeping Buccaneers and Lightnings flying? It won't happen.

I have an LP, 'Salute in Sound' The 50th Anniversary of the RAF, narrated by Gp Capt (Ret'd) Douglas Bader.

It includes the VC10, but more relevant to the VC10 today, he says (of the Hunter) 'well all great fighters have their day and age eventually catches up with them and now this thunderous and ghastly noise is in fact the replacement, the Lightning.......

Age has finally caught up with the VC10.......

ps

Great to meet so many members of the forum today.

Cheers

Mike

Stewart
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Stewart » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:54 pm

There are a fair number of hunters in civilian hands still flying one vampire, and I believe a Meteor, there are some Canberras, not forgetting a Vulcan. There are no buccaneers flying today for good reason, cracks were being found in wing spars. Can't say about the lightning. I believe there's a possibility of a Swift

What I can say is a bunch of enthusiasts hoping to fly a VC10 will scare the CAA and BAe and be shown the door in very short order.

A bunch of engineers and flight crew with large AC experience (ideally with the type itself) might be given a list of (Expensive and time consuming) demands that have to be met rather than be laughed at

If British Airways showed up wanting to restore a VC10 to flight BAe and the CAA would take it very seriously and probably tell them to get on with it and come back when they have it ready and they will take a look (this won't happen as its never going to turn a profit but if it did the CAA would not even baulk at the idea)

I'd actually estimate a minimum of £10 million to start.

Manofmendip
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:58 pm
Location: Midsomer Norton

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Manofmendip » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:57 pm

Guys.

Let me just, one more time, please request that you refrain from talking about a 'flyer'.

I started the VC10der Loving Carers with Wolfgang Borgmann and we both wanted to see a VC10 retained in the air. Wolfgang has achieved miracles in Germany, where official attitudes are very different and where Hamburg City Council and EADS have supported his Hansajet project and, where Lufthansa Technik have initiated and actioned the Lockheed L1649A Starliner project.

We are not in Germany and we do not enjoy their attitude to and support of Aviation Heritage and both Wolfgang and I know that we cannot keep a VC10 flying and we must concentrate on assisting and fully supporting Gary with his 'runner'.

I have been told, on very good authority, that talk on this forum is monitored by various organisations and the continued discussions about a 'flyer' project is hardening attitudes to the sale of a frame for use as a 'runner'; they do not trust us not to try to fly it, so they will stop us acquiring one - End of Story.

I know it seems harsh and 'big brother' stopping free speech but if we want to have a 'runner' at Brunty we must assure those that own the airframes that we have abandoned, for good, our 'flyer' aspirations.

So, please refrain from discussing a 'flyer'.

Thank you for reading this and let's now wait until the dust has settled and Gary is able to complete his negotiations and then the VC10der Loving Carers and Gary will make the relevant announcements.

Best regards.

Dave

User avatar
ACLVC10
Posts: 732
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am
Location: Callington, Cornwall

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by ACLVC10 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:39 pm

Manofmendip wrote:If you're responding to the post above yours, please don't quote it in its entirety. Only quote relevant bits if needed, it keeps the load on the servers down and is easier to read. - JH
Let's hope people start listening to requests now Dave.

Please guys, don't jeopardise this project.

Andy
ACLVC10

Jelle Hieminga
Webmaster
Posts: 750
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2002 9:03 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Jelle Hieminga » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:36 am

I'd like to second Dave (ManofMendip)'s request that we let the subject of keeping a VC10 flying rest. We can argue about this for years and it will still not get anywere as:
  • There is currently nobody willing to invest the money needed to purchase an aircraft, all the spares, engines and so on which are needed.
  • Many components on the aircraft are 'lifed', meaning that they will have to be serviced at some point and the companies who did that may have stopped doing this.
  • You'd need to be able to perform a 'major' inspection on the aircraft, the facilities for this went when St. Athan closed.
  • The aircraft will be classed as 'complex' by the CAA, meaning that design authority support is needed, BAE Systems will not do this.
  • You can easily apply for a registration, somebody even registered a manhole cover once, but this doesn't mean that the CAA will issue a Certificate of Airworthiness too. ZD241 may have been a civil airliner once, but right now it is an ex-civil aircraft, converted to a military tanker and that's what the CAA will see.
I could go on with this, but the point of it all is that there are still talks ongoing about what will happen with the various VC10s currently at Bruntingthorpe etcetera. I would like to request that we all stop this discussion for now so that there will be no cause for concern anywhere and there is room to work out the details between the different parties. In time announcements will be made about what will happen next, until then we need to have some patience here.

I have the option to close down this topic but I'd rather appeal to your common sense and ask you to comply with these requests. I'd prefer to keep the topic available here so that people can engage in conversation but if I find that it will endanger any plans that are currently being worked on then I'll have no other choice. So please guys, it may feel odd but by letting this lie you're helping in securing a future for the VC10s!
Buttons . . . check. Dials . . . check. Switches . . . check. Little
colored lights . . . check.

Manofmendip
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:58 pm
Location: Midsomer Norton

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Manofmendip » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:49 am

Thanks Jellle

I agree that it would be better to leave the thread on the forum but I fully support your decision to close it, should it prove necessary, if its continuation will hinder, or worse, the preservation of all or any of the remaining frames.

Dave Simmonds
Joint Coordinator - VC10der Loving Carers

Rover75
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Rover75 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:01 am

I think it would be a good to see a Bruntingthorpe VC10 preserved in a way to illustrate the engineering that went into the aircraft, this aspect of many machines, not just aircraft, is often overlooked.

Mike

Magnum
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:07 pm
Location: Wantage

Re: Keep one VC10 flying!

Post by Magnum » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Rover75 wrote:I think it would be a good to see a Bruntingthorpe VC10 preserved in a way to illustrate the engineering that went into the aircraft, this aspect of many machines, not just aircraft, is often overlooked.

Mike
That would be a good idea. It would be great to have two airframes, one for the Cold War Jets collection and one set up as a permanent display. Maybe with various panels and bits removed to illustrate the engineering that went into the design and construction, a bit like a cutaway diagram in 3D. It would make a wonderful educational tool for engineers of the future.

petet16
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:09 pm

Re: VC10 preservation (ex-Keep one VC10 flying) thread

Post by petet16 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:26 pm

I agree with Dave and Jelle with regard to flyers, the idea is a complete non starter for the reasons already highlighted, our efforts would be much better applied to helping to preserve the surviving frames at Bruntingthorpe, Newquay, and Dunsfold etc

User avatar
vc10boy
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:37 am
Location: East Ruston Norfolk

Re: VC10 preservation (ex-Keep one VC10 flying) thread

Post by vc10boy » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:19 pm

yes i agree,we must concentrate on keeping a couple alive at brunty,as the flyer is a dead duck it would be fantastic to keep the strongest standard [bob] and the best condition super [5H-MMT] preserved.ex GASG-M it seems was not a loved vc10,and isnt in the best condition,so its far better to keep 5H-MMT in my veiw as she,s the last to come out of a major service so she,s in tip top nic and it would be a crying shame to scrap her is she,s a very strong airframe for future preservation

the next move is to design a cheap custom made hanger that can be produced,any drawings welcome...lets get the ball rolling before endless winters kill any of the pristine ex RAF vc0,s that are now parked around england ...
vc10boy,s photo,s of VC10,s over the years...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/116993858@N08/sets/

Post Reply