Can anybody with first-hand experience on this phenomenon comment on this? Is this something that still happens today on the RAF aircraft (and I'm not talking about the junior crew thereThe VC10 of old ws prone to surging at high altitude- the junior cabin crew working in the rear galley would be a few feet away from a canon going off! You could count to 10 after one and a wide eyed junior crew would breathlessly burst onto the flight deck believing a bomb had gone off it was that bad!
Engine surging on VC10s
-
Jelle Hieminga
- Webmaster
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2002 9:03 pm
- Location: Amsterdam
- Contact:
Engine surging on VC10s
I found the following in a topic on engine surging on PPRUNE:
)?
Buttons . . . check. Dials . . . check. Switches . . . check. Little
colored lights . . . check.
colored lights . . . check.
-
Laurieg
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:48 pm
- Location: Mandria, Cyprus
Engine surges
I have only had one instance of a surge during my time as a GE.
It happened on the take-off roll from Naples. At about 90kts there was a loud bang, (thump was a better way to describe it), from the right hand side. Initailly, I thought we had blown a tyre but after taxiiing off the runway and looking out the frwd service door it was obvious it was the engine.
The eng then told me there was a rapid rise in TGT with stagnating RPM, he had shut #3 down. I did all the usual post surge checks but oddly enough the was no sign of damage of any sort.
The crew and I tried to start it once more but got the same indications - rise in TGT, stagnating NH. After splitting my head open on the drains pipe
I got a concession to gag the engine. A relief GE flew out to take it home.
As an aside to this, I had to stay in Naples for 3 days until the flight surgeon at the hospital cleared me to go home. Each day I had to take a taxi from the hotel over to the naval hospital. 1 Italian taxi ride is enough to age you decades ! After the third trip I begged the doctor to let me go home before I had a nervous breakdown [-o<
After checking with the bay I found that the ecu had extensive 2nd stage HP Comp damage, uncertain as to the cause.
It happened on the take-off roll from Naples. At about 90kts there was a loud bang, (thump was a better way to describe it), from the right hand side. Initailly, I thought we had blown a tyre but after taxiiing off the runway and looking out the frwd service door it was obvious it was the engine.
The eng then told me there was a rapid rise in TGT with stagnating RPM, he had shut #3 down. I did all the usual post surge checks but oddly enough the was no sign of damage of any sort.
The crew and I tried to start it once more but got the same indications - rise in TGT, stagnating NH. After splitting my head open on the drains pipe
As an aside to this, I had to stay in Naples for 3 days until the flight surgeon at the hospital cleared me to go home. Each day I had to take a taxi from the hotel over to the naval hospital. 1 Italian taxi ride is enough to age you decades ! After the third trip I begged the doctor to let me go home before I had a nervous breakdown [-o<
After checking with the bay I found that the ecu had extensive 2nd stage HP Comp damage, uncertain as to the cause.
Never had a GE's wallet. It was always empty when I got back but I always had a smile on my face 
- Tonkenna
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:32 pm
- Location: Boldly going!
- Contact:
-
JEngO
-
30W
Engine surges
The Conway 540 fitted to the Standard VC10 was a typical RR engine with so many limiters it could be firewalled in just about any situation. The 550B fitted to the Super, however, with the three or so extra stages in the compressor was a different animal. Plenty of power but it was prone to surging in the climb at high altitudes. FEs developed a rule of thumb to overcome this involving OAT and N2 which I could no doubt resurrect given sufficient liquid interest.
The white faced look on the cabin crew dashing into the cockpit having witnessed the bang from the rear of the aircraft (and it was quite a bang) was something to behold. The momentary increase in EGT was usually too quick to spot, but the captain would still ask of the engineer which engine had surged to which the reply was invariably "number three sir!"
The white faced look on the cabin crew dashing into the cockpit having witnessed the bang from the rear of the aircraft (and it was quite a bang) was something to behold. The momentary increase in EGT was usually too quick to spot, but the captain would still ask of the engineer which engine had surged to which the reply was invariably "number three sir!"
-
trigcxx
Engine surge
The VC10 is still prone to engine surge. There are steps taken to overcome most of the problem but agricultural handling from the Air Eng will still result in a surge at high level/ low OAT (not happend to me - YET!!! LOL). The steps to overcome the problem basically involve bleeding air off the engine.
-
Nickel
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:53 pm
Re: Engine surging on VC10s
Please forgive the time lapse in responding to this thread but I'm a new member!
Regarding the surges I was the operating GE on a flight out of Hurghada when I clearly heard and felt the muffled thump of an engine surge while taxying. To my surprise this happened again and again. Despite the seat belt signs being on I went into the flt deck. The flt eng said "look at this" and proceded to accellerate the engine to another surge.
I fought back the urge to thump him and told him that if he does it again we will be here for a few days while I change the engine. In the end I got away with changing the FCU as I couldn't see any compressor damage. An engine change would have been a nightmare there as the 'gyppos' make everything difficult. An FCU change was fairly straightforward but even then a gyppo stealing the adjutment tool made the set-ups fairly challenging!
An earlier post stated; "After checking with the bay I found that the ecu had extensive 2nd stage HP Comp damage, uncertain as to the cause" The damage was almost certainly caused by the surge as reverse flow often destroys the flimsy higher stage blades.
The Conway wasn't particularly prone to surges compared to engines of the same vintage but compared to more modern engines it is. The advent of VSVs, VBVs and FADEC have helped tremendously and that's why modern aircraft only need 2 engines these days.
Regards,
Nick
Regarding the surges I was the operating GE on a flight out of Hurghada when I clearly heard and felt the muffled thump of an engine surge while taxying. To my surprise this happened again and again. Despite the seat belt signs being on I went into the flt deck. The flt eng said "look at this" and proceded to accellerate the engine to another surge.
I fought back the urge to thump him and told him that if he does it again we will be here for a few days while I change the engine. In the end I got away with changing the FCU as I couldn't see any compressor damage. An engine change would have been a nightmare there as the 'gyppos' make everything difficult. An FCU change was fairly straightforward but even then a gyppo stealing the adjutment tool made the set-ups fairly challenging!
An earlier post stated; "After checking with the bay I found that the ecu had extensive 2nd stage HP Comp damage, uncertain as to the cause" The damage was almost certainly caused by the surge as reverse flow often destroys the flimsy higher stage blades.
The Conway wasn't particularly prone to surges compared to engines of the same vintage but compared to more modern engines it is. The advent of VSVs, VBVs and FADEC have helped tremendously and that's why modern aircraft only need 2 engines these days.
Regards,
Nick
'I carry the dust of a journey, that cannot be shaken away............................
-
nickwilcock
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:21 pm
Re: Engine surging on VC10s
It was all too easy to surge an engine at high level when flying in formation with another FunBus. Because the pilots controlled the throttles in such circumstances - and the aircraft had never been designed with this in mind.
Often we would fly the wonderful VC10K with 2 crews + students on a 'States Trainer', flying leg and leg about. On one occasion, my crew was in the back for the first leg when there was the unmistakable 'thoomp' of a surge. The (rather know it all) Air Engineer chuckled at this and muttered something about 'ruddy students'....
Next leg, our turn and no student Air Eng. Guess what....another THOOOMP! Whereupon the back end of the jet erupted into gales of laughter.
On another occasion we had to do a 3 engine ferry back from Keflavik. All went fine, except that during the climb one of the remaining engines surged when a long way below the usual surge limit. This concentrated the mind rather - but a 'trend check' in the cruise showed all well.
It seems that the engine had been poorly set up; this would have been hidden to the Air Eng during normal ops and only came to light during the higher demands of a 3 eng climb. But the RR rep was hugely apologetic.
A good Air Eng would provide excellent guidance if the EGT trend check showed that an engine was exhibiting a problem. On one trip my Air Eng advised that the trend showed an engine looking rather poorly. So we shut it down and continued back to base; by the time we landed it had seized solid. His prompt advice had saved us suffering an engine failure... After we looked further into the problem, we found that the Air Eng leader had falsified earlier entries in the Trend Log purely to avoid a down route engine change. We never trusted the so-and-so ever again!
Often we would fly the wonderful VC10K with 2 crews + students on a 'States Trainer', flying leg and leg about. On one occasion, my crew was in the back for the first leg when there was the unmistakable 'thoomp' of a surge. The (rather know it all) Air Engineer chuckled at this and muttered something about 'ruddy students'....
Next leg, our turn and no student Air Eng. Guess what....another THOOOMP! Whereupon the back end of the jet erupted into gales of laughter.
On another occasion we had to do a 3 engine ferry back from Keflavik. All went fine, except that during the climb one of the remaining engines surged when a long way below the usual surge limit. This concentrated the mind rather - but a 'trend check' in the cruise showed all well.
It seems that the engine had been poorly set up; this would have been hidden to the Air Eng during normal ops and only came to light during the higher demands of a 3 eng climb. But the RR rep was hugely apologetic.
A good Air Eng would provide excellent guidance if the EGT trend check showed that an engine was exhibiting a problem. On one trip my Air Eng advised that the trend showed an engine looking rather poorly. So we shut it down and continued back to base; by the time we landed it had seized solid. His prompt advice had saved us suffering an engine failure... After we looked further into the problem, we found that the Air Eng leader had falsified earlier entries in the Trend Log purely to avoid a down route engine change. We never trusted the so-and-so ever again!
-
Richard Moss
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:13 pm
Re: Engine surging on VC10s
The only surge I ever had was when the number 4 chucked a wobbly on take off from Dulles in the late 80s. It threw a big blue flame out of the intake at about 100kts and we decided to abandon the take-off.
Of course, unlike Nick I was only a 10 Sqn trash hauler so we didn't do AAR then.
Of course, unlike Nick I was only a 10 Sqn trash hauler so we didn't do AAR then.
-
Speedbird 590
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:17 pm
Re: Engine surging on VC10s
I think TRIGCXX puts his finger on the problem, a diligent E/O could, and usually did, avoid the known high altitude surge. 25 and 25 were the magic numbers, during the climb on a Super when the temperature was below -25C and the altitude above FL250 a surge could happen, a good Engineer could watch engine parameters and trim the throttles to avoid it. However if one did occur it was felt rather than heard up front: a count was then taken of the time it took for the cabin crew to make their comments... In 12 years of VC10 operation I never encountered a surge below 25000' and never on a Standard. The low level surges posted would indicate engine snags not engine design problems.
The reference to old and new engines is hardly fair. The Pratt engine on the 747 was a surge queen, a less than copybook throttle closure at TOD could have spectacular results and an enthusiasic selection of reverse, partcularly in a cross wind, could provide you with more runway illumination than the landing lights, and this with a plethora of surge protection compressor bleeds. In these big fan engines the EGT would tend to shoot through the limitations if the E/O was not quick on the HP cock. The engine almost always shut down and restarted.
TTW
The reference to old and new engines is hardly fair. The Pratt engine on the 747 was a surge queen, a less than copybook throttle closure at TOD could have spectacular results and an enthusiasic selection of reverse, partcularly in a cross wind, could provide you with more runway illumination than the landing lights, and this with a plethora of surge protection compressor bleeds. In these big fan engines the EGT would tend to shoot through the limitations if the E/O was not quick on the HP cock. The engine almost always shut down and restarted.
TTW
-
Gwyn
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:03 pm
Re: Engine surging on VC10s
The Conway 550B fitted to the SVC-10 had an extra compressor stage that gave it the surge at high Altitude. It could be cured by putting on the engine/airframe anti-icing.
- vololiberista
- Posts: 334
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:13 pm
- Location: LIMZ - CUF
Re: Different Conway marks question
The Flight Manuel quotes:-
Standard
No n1 Limitation
Super
At heights above 25,000ft n1 is limited as follows-
.... .....At IOC c -60 -55 -45 -35 -25
Max continuous 95..96..98..100.102
...........Climb n1 92..93..95..97...--
One would imagine the Super's engines popping all the time without the EO being
glued to his panel!!
vololiberista
Standard
No n1 Limitation
Super
At heights above 25,000ft n1 is limited as follows-
.... .....At IOC c -60 -55 -45 -35 -25
Max continuous 95..96..98..100.102
...........Climb n1 92..93..95..97...--
One would imagine the Super's engines popping all the time without the EO being
glued to his panel!!
vololiberista