Subsonic transatlantic record

[Stewart]

I was reading on the bruntingthorpe aviation site that XR808 held this record, but I was under the impression is was G-ASGC that held this record?

[Jelle Hieminga]

There are a lot of different records possible over the Atlantic. G-ASGC did a very fast New York-London flight but I don't know if that is recorded somewhere as an official record. The official body for that is the FAI: http://www.fai.org

I'll have to look up which specific record XR808 holds.

Edit: I did find three VC10 records in their database so far.
FAI Record File Num #5386 Direct Link
Status: ratified - current record
Region: World
Class: C (Powered Aeroplanes)
Sub-Class: C-1p (Landplanes: take off weight 100 000 to 150 000 kg)
Category: Not applicable
Group: 3 : turbo-jet
Type of record: Speed over a recognised course
Performance: 827.55 km/h
Date: 1987-12-22
Course/Location: Ascension Island - London (United Kingdom)
Claimant John Knapp (GBR)
Aeroplane: BAe (British Aerospace) VC-10C Mk1 (XV-109)
Engines: 4 Rolls Royce Conway

FAI Record File Num #16403 Direct Link
Status: ratified - current record
Region: World
Class: C (Powered Aeroplanes)
Sub-Class: C-1p (Landplanes: take off weight 100 000 to 150 000 kg)
Category: Not applicable
Group: 3 : turbo-jet
Type of record: Speed over a recognised course
Performance: 848.08 km/h
Date: 1987-12-20
Course/Location: London (United Kingdom) - Port Stanley (Falklands UK)
Claimant Chris Lumb (GBR)
Aeroplane: BAe (British Aerospace) VC-10C Mk1
Engines: 4 Rolls Royce Conway

FAI Record File Num #16401 Direct Link
Status: ratified - current record
Region: World
Class: C (Powered Aeroplanes)
Sub-Class: C-1p (Landplanes: take off weight 100 000 to 150 000 kg)
Category: Not applicable
Group: 3 : turbo-jet
Type of record: Speed over a recognised course
Performance: 824.35 km/h
Date: 1987-12-19
Course/Location: London (United Kingdom) - Ascension Island
Claimant John Halstead (GBR)
Aeroplane: BAe (British Aerospace) VC-10C Mk1
Engines: 4 Rolls Royce Conway

Does anyone know which VC10s were used for these flights? I've only found the registration of the first one from these three.

[Gwyn]

Hi Jella,

It is I who holds the Atlantic record in 'GC' from JFK - PWK and is elsewhere on the site under 'Atlantic Dash'

Gwyn

[Stewart]

AFIK the 'Blue Ribbon' record refered to on the bruntingthorpe site always originated at New York when applied to ships, so would say the same applied to aircraft.

But having looked it up.. while New York was the generally port on that side, there's no requirement, it's just the highest average speed for the crossing. However for the 'Blue Riband' prize proper there is a requirement it to be a commercial vessel, so BOB could never hold the 'Blue Riband' as it's a military vessel

[Jelle Hieminga]

I've found the same Stewart, so it is a bit puzzling where the statement on the Bruntingthorpe website comes from. I have a feeling that it was more of a PR statement based on lists maintained by ATC/Squadrons/Airlines/etc. For a record to be official it has to be registered with the FAI and I suspect that a lot of records never were. Gwyn, do you know if a FAI registration was obtained for your Atlantic Dash?

I have only found the three records I listed above in the FAI database, unfortunately it doesn't support a search by aircraft type. Also a lot of the records on North Atlantic stretches are now held by Concordes. Perhaps we need to contact the FAI and ask if they can provide a list of current and past records held by VC10s. I'll e-mail them later I think.

[Gwyn]

At the time I did the 'Atlantic dash' I was a very young freshly promoted Captain and after the flight I went to our management to hopefully, record the event somewhere, I got fobbed off under the banner of 'NIH' or 'not invented here' syndrome. This was 1979 and the new breed of young Captains were looked down upon since they had never been 'upside down in a Hunter' let alone be capable of anything spectacular so that was that. Having said that I know I did it and enough for me.

Gwyn

[Stewart]

At the time I did the 'Atlantic dash' I was a very young freshly promoted Captain and after the flight I went to our management to hopefully, record the event somewhere, I got fobbed off under the banner of 'NIH' or 'not invented here' syndrome. This was 1979 and the new breed of young Captains were looked down upon since they had never been 'upside down in a Hunter' let alone be capable of anything spectacular so that was that. Having said that I know I did it and enough for me.

Gwyn

Surely upside down in a VC10 is more interesting? I have heard a few stories about what went on with some of the training flights! VI was defiantly upside down shortly after travelling at M.97 quiet early on in it's career (late '64). And there was the Dutch roll exercise which often ended upside down (allegedly)!

It could also be that by 1979 they might have found it mildly embarrassing to have a record set by a type they were about to retire!

[Gwyn]

Hi Stewart,

The problem with the Dutch Roll was it became divergent so quick that within about three or four swings it was on it's way. This was amply demonstrated to me on training and I remember practising the recovery procedure at 40,000 ft and getting to about 85 degrees of bank before the recovery. Not too sure about getting inverted but it is possible. I believe on development flying one got very close to being supersonic in a shallow dive.

As for the trainers back in the 60s they were a mad lot.

Gwyn

[Stewart]

As for the trainers back in the 60s they were a mad lot.

Gwyn

In their defence, they did have to cope with 'changable' handling characteristics when the germans decided to remove bits of the airframe without permision!

I also guess they expected the trainees to be flying supersonic long before retirement, I don't think anyone expected big airliners to superceed the fast ones at that time. I belive the 747 was seen a a huge gamble while in development, on the bet the company on (as they did the 707)

[Rover75]

At the time I did the 'Atlantic dash' I was a very young freshly promoted Captain and after the flight I went to our management to hopefully, record the event somewhere, I got fobbed off under the banner of 'NIH' or 'not invented here' syndrome. This was 1979 and the new breed of young Captains were looked down upon since they had never been 'upside down in a Hunter' let alone be capable of anything spectacular so that was that. Having said that I know I did it and enough for me.

Gwyn

I think you should have flown a VC10 under Tower Bridge......that would have put the Hunter upside downers in their place !

Cheers

Mike

[Gsxr600]

Are we actually says BOB's record was never actually a record at all, just an unofficial timing? Poor BOB, his famous achievement that is talked about so much is actually a myth - surely not? Hopefully someone can clarify this one as he goes into preservation.

[Stewart]

I do wonder, I was talking to dad at the weekend and he was surprised to hear of Gwyn's claim to the record, as aparently Bob Knights (DFC ex 617 Lancasters) was always after it.

I wonder if XR808's claim is a case of chinese whispers. Originating as a comment such as 'Bob Knights holds it' from some time in the '60s or even early 70's over the years becoming BOB. When was XR808 supposed to have broken the record?